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Skylar Hill-Jackson (photo by Mimi Choi)

We recently spoke to Skylar Hill-Jackson, founder and director of Baby & Me Fitness, which provides fitness classes and discussion sessions for pregnant women and new mothers. Skylar started Baby & Me Fitness in 1987, but she developed and practised the philosophy behind her Toronto-based business even before she became a mother. We started our conversation by discussing the recent news story that the benefits of breastfeeding also includes a reduced likelihood for the mother to acquire Type 2 diabetes.

Did you know that from your own experience or from research [about Type 2]?

All I knew was that I was committed to breastfeeding, that was it, I was going to do it, and I didn’t care if the benefits were for me or the baby. That was my decision. If I can grow a baby, then I should be able to feed my baby the way nature intended.

Was your decision to breastfeed a philosophical decision you had from the beginning?

I was breastfed. My mother breastfed us at a time when it wasn’t acceptable, it was all formula feeding, so I had that role model. I was going to squat out my babies. I was really crunchy granola, I’m doing it all natural. There’s only 100% cotton in my house. We don’t have wall-to-wall broadloom. I mean, it’s all environmental, I’m completely radical and way ahead of my time. There’s been no smoking in my house for years. My friends were very upset. They’ve come onboard with all of that. We were really ahead. I was really way ahead. Because – I don’t know why. When things didn’t make sense to me, I didn’t do them, or I would do things differently. I am always asking “Why?”, and questioning common belief systems.

Your oldest child is 24, so you’re talking about the 80s when you started doing these things in relation to your children. And that’s a time when the norm was to not only bottle feed but formula. Were you were always conscious of being different, and how did you reconcile that among other people you knew who weren’t doing that?

First of all, I didn’t have any family here, so there was no one looking over my shoulder. Secondly, I was the only one having a baby in my circle of friends, so I was out there out on my own, so I was allowed to do anything I wanted. The third thing that happened was that I was introduced to Mothering magazine¹ in the 80s. You can imagine the collection I have because I’ve subscribed ever since. So I had that as a role model because I was left leaning, left thinking anyway, and I’ve always thought outside the box. I’ve never believed what I read or hear, I’ve always filtered it and used common sense to decide whether it made sense to me or not. It was as easy as I was not going to buy commercial baby food because I read the labels. And I thought, I don’t want salt, sugar, corn starch and filler and other junk. I don’t want to do that. No one was doing anything else. Everyone else was buying jarred baby food. There was no one for me to turn to. I used the La Leche² book as a guide.

I did have one mother who was a friend of a friend who was six months ahead of me, and she had a few pieces of very valuable information that I thought about every time I made my own brown rice cereal because I didn’t want to feed what was out there and making my own baby cereal was a big production back then. I had to go to the health food store. I had to pull out the husks, I had to rinse it a few times, I had to dry it, and it was a really big deal. So, I’ve always used my common sense. It’s all very natural, very basic, simple is best, everything in moderation. My husband says I’m a bumper sticker speaker. I talk in bumper sticker language: Keep It Simple, Everything In Moderation, Many Hands Make Light Work, Think Before You Speak, Look After the Pennies And the Pounds/Dollars Will Look After Themselves, Don’t Wish Your Life Away, If A Job Is Worth Doing, It’s Worth Doing Well, etc., etc. Fun to think of all the things I say routinely to my kids.

Has your husband been supportive?

I’ve dragged him kicking and screaming.

Was he understanding back then or was he shaking his head in disbelief?

I think he was shaking his head in disbelief because he didn’t know anything. That wasn’t his experience with his first wife and their first child. And she tried to breastfeed and the doctor said, there’s something wrong with your breastmilk, so they went to formula. Bad, bad, bad information. When he met me, and we had our first baby, I already had my plans, they were already set. Because I was in charge of that and the feeding and so on. I did cloth diapers. I did Baby Snibbs Diaper Covers³, nobody knows what they are. I still sell them in class because I believe in them. They originally came from England and Sweden, and they’re soft vinyl in the shape of an hourglass, and you put the cloth diaper down the centre, and pull up the soft vinyl and tie bows on either side. They come 10 in a pack for $15 and they’re reusable and I just threw them in the sink when they were dirty and washed them with hand soap and threw them over the shower door to dry. One of the questions you sent me was, do I feel like a pioneer? Yes, I do feel like a pioneer in terms of childbearing and childrearing.

And in other senses of the word.

I’ve taken the classes and pass the information along. This is my experience, you might want to know the other side. You can make an informed decision when you’ve got this information. I could go and do a diaper talk, a diapering alternative talk and I give out four-page handout to take away, and I do it in the north end in the city. I remember going up there once and saying, I’m going to talk about diapering alternatives. The entire room of pregnant women’s faces turned blank, and they said, We didn’t know there were any alternatives to disposable, because that’s all they knew.

When you mentioned you didn’t have family here and in your circle of friends you were the first to have a baby, did that make you feel confirmed in your beliefs or did you need any sense of validation? Did you think, I believe in things strongly enough that I don’t care what everyone else thinks?

That was it.

Where did you get that sense of confidence, because that must translate later on to the development of your business?

You’re right, it does translate. I don’t know where I got that confidence from. Actually, I did get my strong convictions and confidence from my mother who was a very strong role model. My mother was a single mother, she raised three children, she kicked my father out when I was five, and I was the eldest of three. She was a strong female character. She was very confident of her decision to move from Vancouver to England with three children with no money, and we were poor, but we managed which is probably where my simplistic living comes from. I think it was from her. I was probably feminist leaning before there was such a term as feminism. I bought Ms.⁴ magazine when it first came out and I was all over that. But I had strong female characters [in my life]. My mother had strong female women friends that were also in my life. Plus, I had this other friend of my mom’s, who took a special interest in me, and told me I was special, and not even with words but by action, so I had this outside the family strong woman who thought there was something unique about me, versus my sister and brother, and I was the ‘bad child.’ So I think I got the confidence from that strong female character, my mother, and I read a lot. I mean, my whole life was books. We didn’t have television. I read a lot of female writers with strong female characters.

Did you read a lot during your pregnancy? Everyone says, I read a lot while I was pregnant, but I think often a lot of it becomes contradictory. When you talk about using the resources, did you say, everything is clear, this is the plan?

I had the plan before the baby was born. I think I just sort of drift through life and gather information, as anybody does, get rid of the stuff that doesn’t speak to your heart or instincts. And you keep the stuff, or you latch onto the idea, when I have a child, I’m going to do these things, I’m going to do cloth diapers, I’m going to breastfeed, I’m committed to that, I have a certain parenting technique or style I’ve seen other people doing or the way I was raised. You know how reactionary you are to your parents and so on. I had the plan in place, and I used it for all three children.

Often after birth, you’re overwhelmed and fatigued and this is true among some other women I know. In some cases, they say, I like the idea of cloth diapers, then you’re overwhelmed by everything. They end up saying, the easy path, that’s the one I’m taking.

Let me tell you about the cloth diapers. I didn’t even have a dryer. We only had a washing machine. The reason we bought a house to begin with was because we were living in an apartment. We were dragging five loads of baskets to the laundromat. And I said, that’s it, I’ve had enough, and this was well before children. I said, that’s it, we have to buy a house with a washer, because I’m not doing this anymore. I line-dried everything. I didn’t get a washer or dryer until 10 years ago. I already had three kids. I line-dried. I still line dry all the summer because I really like it. It was the bedding that got to me and it was the winter. I said, that’s it. With all that bedding, I’ve got to have a dryer. I took my husband kicking and screaming to get that dryer, and it works fine. I still line-dry most of our cotton clothing. I use the dryer mainly for bedding and towels only through the winter. In summer, I line-dry everything.

You must have among the lowest bills.

We’ve been ecologically concerned for a long time. When we had the blackout [in August 2003], our neighbourhood was one of the last to come back on, 44 hours for us, and my kids looked at us and said, okay, now we get it. [We’re always say,] turn it off. If you’re not in the room, turn off the TV. You know, it’s always like, parents [say], turn it off, turn it off, turn it off.

And it wasn’t a shock for them.

I realized I have candles in every room, just sitting there. I had no idea.

The blackout could have been longer as far as you’re concerned.

Except for the stuff in the freezer.

I think this explains a lot in terms of what came before your business. When you were washing your cloth diapers and preparing homemade baby food, did any of these things feel like hard work to you?

No, they didn’t feel like hard work, they felt like part of motherhood with the baby. I was demand feeding, so I was responding to my baby’s needs, I didn’t believe in letting the baby cry it out or any of those things, which is why none of my three kids slept through the night until they were two. If I had to do it again, I would do it differently, like feeding them in the middle of the night. So, no, it didn’t feel like hard work. It just felt like, you know women multitask, right? You can throw in a load of laundry. I would get my husband to help. I would say, I threw the laundry in, could you hang it up, I’m feeding the baby. It’s a partnership as a couple. His first wife whipped him into some kind of agreeable shape. So when I got him, he did his own laundry. He does his own laundry today, from day one, and he does his own ironing, I just don’t do those things, and I don’t sew for him, and that’s that.

Even if you felt strongly about these things and you’re philosophically against disposable diapers, were there ever times when you thought, I could sure use those now?

I’m not going to say I didn’t ever use them. There were times when it was appropriate to use them. Travelling, for example. We went on a trip, and we went to visit his mother in Arizona, for example, and it wasn’t possible, it wasn’t cotton, there wasn’t any way for that. You know, everything in moderation in the given circumstances. But certainly at home, there was no reason to turn to them. The only other time I turned to them was when my third one was 18 months old, she broke her leg falling off the playground equipment at the west end Y while I was doing a fitness class. I had to use disposable because she had a cast from her toes to her crotch.

How long was she in her cast?

Three weeks, young children heal quickly.

That’s a long time at that age, because there’s still a lot of growth, very rapid growth. That must have been very…

It was very distressing. I was glad to see how fast she healed. It was really sad when they took the cast off, the leg was skinnier than the other leg.

At 18 months, that must have been a hard experience.

Yeah, but you get on with it, you’re a mother, so you get on with it, right? I took pictures of it so she would have it in her album, so she would know she broke that leg. She turned into a figure skater, she’s highly athletic. There’s no residual anything.

So tell me how Baby & Me got started.

My whole life I’ve done dance. In the 70s I did yoga. I’ve always done fitness of some kind. I always hike outdoors, all that, that’s a part of my life. When I first together with my husband, we were living together, we got busy with work, I didn’t do anything. We were renovating our house, I got pregnant, I thought, oh my goodness, I have to get in shape for this. I started to look around for something that I could do being pregnant, and there wasn’t anything. One of my friends was a member of the JCC [Jewish Community Centre]. She said, there’s a new program that’s just started, from a woman from California, and it’s Monday, Wednesday and Friday mornings, and it’s for pregnant women. It’s exercise for pregnant women and it’s $2 a class.

What year was this?

1980. And I went to work at the CBC, and I said, Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, I’ll be in at noon. And I signed up for these classes, and I did them all the way through my pregnancy. And this woman from California was a dancer and pregnant also with her first baby, and she was here because her husband was a filmmaker and there was some film thing going on. So, that’s what I did. And that’s how it started. She had a Caesarean, and she needed an instructor to help her with the classes after she had her baby, and because I obviously had the background. Basically the class was designed, and I just did it, and that’s how I started. So, I actually started teaching when my child was four months old, and I’ve been doing it ever since.

When you were pregnant and you started these classes, was there any resistance from your employer?

 No.

What was your reaction to these classes?

It was exactly what I was looking for. It was perfect. It was the idea that pregnant women don’t have to stop, that we can continue exercising. The classes were fairly popular for that small group and it was the only thing in the city. There were women out there who were like minded, who were pregnant and wanted to keep moving. There was no music, it was just dancercise. I started teaching for her, and I thought, I want music, so I introduced music, and I put the tape together myself, choosing all appropriate lyrics and music. I took it to heart. I said, I put this music together, and that set the trend for adding music. You can imagine what was out there back then, there were fitness classes at the central Y and fitness classes at the JCC, and not a whole lot anywhere else.

That was around the time Jane Fonda was starting her exercise classes. There were probably other like-minded people, but it wasn’t widespread. You couldn’t just refer to it and everyone would know what you’re talking about it. How did this woman get the idea?

It’s like with Jane Fonda, her whole thing was from California. And if you were in the dance community, and you were pregnant, I don’t think you quit dancing just because they were pregnant. When she found herself pregnant, she just thought, I can run these classes while I’m here, I’m not Canadian, but I can run these classes, I can make some money while I’m pregnant, while my husband’s working. They evolved that way for her. But everyone says that anything that’s unusual or innovative or new comes from California. They’ve got that edge somehow.

Because she was a dancer and you’re a dancer, did you that give you the instinctive knowledge about what to do? The fear would be while you’re pregnant of moving inappropriately.

Yeah, is it safe? Well, because of being involved with teaching with that woman from California, obviously, I started to look around to see what was out there. There was a very important book, the only one, Essential Exercises in Pregnancy by Elizabeth Noble⁵, she’s from the U.S. That was our bible. That went through the whole physiological pregnancy, body changes, and the exercises that were appropriate. She was the first one who talked about separation of the rectus muscles. Yes, you can do abdominal exercises all the way through pregnancy, these are the ones to do, so I started as an instructor to gather information. And again, filter it, try it, use it, try it on myself, and offer it up in classes. And that’s how the class design came about. 

Were you ever worried when you were pregnant that the exercises were harmful?

You know what, it’s common sense. If it doesn’t feel good or if you’re listening to your body, and it doesn’t feel right, or you’re going to modify it.

That was an interesting time for such trends. The fitness revolution had started, people had started to run more in the mid-70s, you can see the impulse starting, but why did no one think of this before?

Because there were two diametrically opposing views. One was, there’s no reason to stop doing anything in your life because you’re pregnant, i.e., farmers with their wives working side by side, lifting their skirts, dropping the baby. And then the attitude of the affluent people in the 1800s, oh, you’re pregnant, sit down, rest for nine months, don’t do anything, you might lose the baby. Don’t lift your hands over your head or the umbilical cord will strangle the baby. So they had these two opposite views. The upwardly mobile people with money were the ones who were having the horrible birth experiences because they were told to rest; the peasants were doing just fine, thank you very much, and they had the midwives and these women had the obstetricians and they were having different birth experiences and different pregnancy experiences.

It’s interesting that in the late 70s all that seemed to mesh together.

Yeah, think of all the hippies, all that left thinking, questioning, burning our bras, feminism, the whole thing, lots of women out there, lots of people asking questions.

So you started to teach these classes, what was happening, were they becoming fantastically popular?

Yes.

You were still working with the woman from California. Was there a light that turned on in your head about starting your own business?

Yes, I worked for her for five years. I kept offering ideas, trying to think about expanding, and she wasn’t interested. She was moving out of this business, she wasn’t involved except that it was hers and she had instructors. No one knew who she was. And, you know, you get attached to the instructor. Because she’d lost interest in it, she removed herself to some degree, that’s what happened, she turned to a completely different career, and sort of walked away and left it open.

Did you take over or was it a fresh start?

It was a fresh start.

If she hadn’t abandoned it, would you have still continued working for her?

No. Because she lost interest, we weren’t getting along. We had different views about how things should go. I thought, I’ll lay low, I’ve got two kids, I’m busy with my kids, I’ll regroup and I’ll think about what I want to do. I had a store at that time, new and used, a secondhand kids clothing store, so I had this other job, I was doing both and I liked both.

Where were your kids at this point?

I opened the secondhand children’s store in my neighbourhood, the Bloor and Ossington area, when Joshua was one and Alissa was three. And I was teaching pre- and postnatal fitness classes.

Were they with you all the time?

I hired somebdy to work in my store Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays because I taught classes Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. I worked in the store Tuesday and Thursdays, and when Alissa was three she went to full-time daycare, and Joshua was with me, and he was with his dad, I think, because Joel was a supply teacher. The days I taught, Joshua actually came [with me], he grew up in babysitting [offered at the JCC]. So when I taught in the morning he was in babysitting.

They had babysitting from back then?

Yeah, Alissa was in the babysitting also. When I taught the classes before I had the store, Alissa came to work with me, she went into babysitting, I’d teach the class, I’d go get her, we’d go home, have lunch, she’d have her afternoon nap, Joel would come home from school, he’d have her for the evening, and I [went back to the JCC] to teach the evening prenatal fitness classes. It worked out great.

Would you ever bring your kids to class?

I have brought them to classes. Usually if they weren’t feeding well or something broke down with babysitting or whatever the story was. They were pretty good. But I remember Joshua on a mat, all curled up, not feeling well, in a corner and me teaching the class. I remember one of them in the stroller, I remember saying in the class, here’s your food, here’s your drink, here are your toys, you can’t talk to mummy until the music stops. When the music stops, you can talk to mummy.

Were they compliant?

Oh, very. That’s the wonderful thing with kids. If you lay it out there, tell them how it’s going to be, you’re the one in charge, they handle it. And the class was 45 minutes, so it was a 45-minute window. And there was lots, he had everything, and there was lots to watch, so the baby was fine.

Even if nothing happened, did you fear dividing your attention?

No, I was able to divide my attention easily. I think if you run classes long enough, you have a lot of confidence, and if you’ve had your class for long enough, they have confidence in you. I kept the design of the class very similar because there’s comfort in knowing that the class isn’t going to change from week to week. They think, I don’t know if I’m going to get that step combination. They got very comfortable with the design of it, the music was very familiar. I could give them my total attention, and my kids were pretty well behaved.

How long did it take for you to say this business was established?

It was well established by 1995. After I had the third baby – she’s 16 now – Karen Weinthal and I were business partners in Baby and Me Fitness. We had established it in 1987. I had gone to England and France for 13 months with my family, Karen ran the business while I was gone. When I returned in June 1995, we began expanding locations, classes and programs.

Did you think, I’m going to rethink what I’m doing, while you were away?

No, it was just a chance of a lifetime to take that time. My business was in place. I didn’t have the store anymore, I had the store for seven years, and then it was too much to do the store and the classes, and I also had a children’s clothing line, and I made the decision to only run the classes, I chose the classes over the store.

Because it was a better business?

I couldn’t decide between the two anymore. I really loved the store, it was a community. I sold breastfeeding stuff, I sold all the things I believed in. I recycled the clothes because I believed in that part of it. It was a really fun thing to have. Because I had the third baby and three different businesses, something had to give. And even then, I had a second store, it was an all-new store, and I was doing clothing manufacturing for kids’ clothing. I just did a lot of things. And I had to let them go, one by one and keep the one thing that had most meaning for me, and that was the classes. When Jorien, when I had her, when she was about 18 months, I made the decision to let the store go, all the stores go, the clothing business go, and only stay with the classes.

Why did that have more meaning for you?

I really liked the community of having women in an environment that was all about fitness, health and wellness, and the discussion component. And I really loved sharing information, as simple as when you start solid food, and I had all that information, and it was against the conventional information, and I wanted them to have the other side of it so that they could make an informed choice. And because they would come back to me and say, I learned so much in these classes, and I thought, I could have an effect, not for everyone, but for a few. And I get those kind of calls, I want to order a gift certificate for your next baby food workshop because I want to give it as a present to a friend/relative, because what I learned from taking that course stayed with me, so that every time I give my child or children some food, I think about that food taste test that we did in that course and the fact that you said, if you don’t like the taste of something, why would you give it to your child?

I think we’re on this planet to help other people and to be some kind of positive influence, whatever way that might be, and I think I’m in a position to do that – to share that information: How to have a better pregnancy, how to have a better birth, think about a midwives vs. obstetricians, think about the breastfeeding, call me if you have breastfeeding questions, think about organic foods for your baby, now that it’s so available.

The desire to have a positive effect on at least a few women, did you get anything back from them?

Oh, yes. [What I got back from them was] that this was brand-new information to them, that they only knew the one side of the story, and they were accepting of that one side because they got it from health care professionals or the books they were reading, and they didn’t know there was another side to it, and that they’re so grateful, that yes, there was another side to it. Yes, you can make your own baby food, yes, you can use cloth diapers, you can mix and match information, it does take six weeks for you and the baby to get comfortable with the breastfeeding. Lots of women come back -- I do that breastfeeding class in pregnancy, and it goes in one ear and out the other. Then they remember, oh, Skylar said that it takes six weeks, and here they are, week two, they’re having trouble, week three, they’re having trouble, but Skylar says it takes six weeks, so if I just get to six weeks, I’ll be over this. They came back with that information and it’s great.

Did they ever say, I tried this, and you say, wow, I never thought of that?

Oh, yes. When they do the group discussions, I’m always learning something new. Then I get to pass the information along in other classes.

What have you learned, that in your vast reading, is a revelation to you?

I have learned to question everything, to think more deeply, before embarrassing conventional theories and conventional thinking.

A lot of this information comes very casually.

Mother to mother.

I think there would be an impulse to want to broadcast it further. Do you have any thoughts about compiling everything you know in book format?

Funny you should mention that. The year I spent in France I actually wrote the first draft of the book, and that was 12 years ago, and I haven’t gone any further because I’m so busy. I do a lot of writing for the handouts that I give out in class, and updating them. So there’s a lot of ongoing writing, and I have enough handouts that I probably have the basis for the book as well. But I do, I do want to write. I think I have two books in me. I definitely want to take all the information that I’ve compiled and definitely put it into a book, and I’d like to do that in the next two years.

You must have a sense of what the industry is like for books for parenting. How would yours be different?

The books out there are so mainstream, and they’re so conventional, and so party line. And they have the weight of the health care profession. I don’t have any of that. I’ve been so left leaning, and so thinking out of the box, asking questions in this whole journey of motherhood, which has been 24 years. From the feedback that I’ve gotten from the women and so on, and knowing I’ve given them just odd little pieces of information that hasopened up their world, or opened up their minds, to ask questions for themselves to make informed decision, that I feel that I am unrestricted, that I can write anything I want, and that because the book will be so different from what’s out there, it will present another side.

I’d like to discuss the pioneering and mompreneur aspects of your business. Back then obviously the word didn’t exist. Did you have any sense of how to identify and define yourself, particularly when marketing Baby & Me Fitness?

When we started, it was part time. The main focus was on the family. I had one child and Karen had one child, and we both wanted to have more. We had supportive partners so that we could work part time. Neither wanted to go back to the original career because it didn’t really fit with the balance of family and work. We taught classes, and we only taught as many classes in the week that we felt comfortable handling, maybe two and four classes a week for each of us, and we had only one location. And then we expanded to another location, and we went on to have other children, and we backed each other up, if somebody was sick or on holiday, and it was all very manageable, and we made enough money to buy groceries. And it was fine.

Did you see yourself as a businessperson at that point, or just, this what I’m doing?

A little bit of both. It was a business, we set it up as a business, we registered the name, it was a partnership, income taxes, all that paraphernalia that comes with having a business through the province of Ontario. We had to pay rent, we had all those things in place, and then I wanted to expand. I had two children and Karen had two children, and they were getting older. So we went and found another location, a different area of the city, and from there we started to find other locations, because mothers want stuff in their own community, they want to be able to walk to it, they don’t want to have to drive too far, and there’s pitiful parking around here. So that’s how it started to grow and then we couldn’t teach all the classes ourselves. Plus, I had a third baby, with a five and a half year gap between the middle one and the next one, and Karen wanted a third baby, too, and she waited until I had mine, and then she had hers, so that she could cover classes when I was on that so-called short maternity leave. Then we started to look around for instructors, and that brought into place teacher training, so here we have this amazing program that we’ve designed, specifically me, and I wanted to introduce other types of pre- and postnatal fitness classes so I introduced yoga for pregnant women in the late 80s, way before there was such a thing as yoga for pregnant women.

Before Madonna discovered it.

Yeah, because I thought, I want cross-training, I want them to have that option, and we had five or six women in yoga, and it kind of limped along, but we had an amazing instructor, a dancer who came from my classes when she was pregnant with her first baby. She had moved away from fitness, away from dance, she moved into yoga, that was her thing, so she did the prenatal yoga class, and then it became a trend 10 years ago.

What made you decide to expand?

The popularity of classes, and because we wanted to meet the needs of women in their own community and we were willing to travel to the other locations. After the third baby, it became more career. We totally made that decision not to go back to what we did before. We needed more than grocery money now, we needed to build it.

Was the expansion also intimidating? It’s one thing to run a business from one location, keep control of costs, but once you expand to more than one location, it’s double the costs, but you don’t know if it’s double the revenue right away. How was that?

That was an interesting process. When we expanded to the first location, which was Dufferin and Lawrence, it was fine, and it drew the people and I don’t know how. Then the third location, they came to us. Would you put a program in? We looked at it and said yes, and then the fourth location, the same thing, would you put a program in, and that was Beaches. I started that class in the Beach, and I had two pregnant women in the class, and it didn’t cover the rent. But it was worth putting it in as an investment into that area because it was all about a house, a dog and a baby. It went all the way up.

In that kind of experience when it didn’t cover the rent, was that scary?

The other classes were really big and healthy and covered the losses. We felt we had that extra to give to them. Plus, I was teaching it. We weren’t paying another instructor to do it.

That’s what really tests your mettle as a businessperson, when you experience the difficulties, the challenges. There’s so many women with young children. You can’t assume that they’re all going to be your clients.

I have an illustration for that. People in Scarborough wanted classes. It took us a while to figure out how we were going to do that because it’s a long way away. I trained an instructor and she moved to Scarborough. I said, okay, I’ve got the instructor, and we found locations, and I put everything in place, I put ads in, thousands of dollars in the local Scarborough paper, and we got four people registered for it, ran it with four, and that was it, I couldn’t run it, it was a drain, and it just didn’t fly, so we let it go. That’s a problem. Here, we’re offering an important health and fitness program in Scarborough in their own community and they’re not interested.

What do you think was the difficulty there?

I have no idea. I don’t live in Scarborough. I think if I lived there, I might have a better handle on it, but I have no idea.

So you probably need someone who has a better sense of community issues.

Yes, the whole idea of hiring instructors is that we wanted them to teach classes in their own neighbourhood, because they’re connected to their own neighbourhood, their own communities. Plus, there’s less stress, they’re not driving halfway across the city, and they’ve got their own families. We have that basic philosophy that if you live in Bloor West Village, we would love you to teach in Bloor West Village. If you live in the Beaches area, we want you to teach in the Beaches because then you can walk to your class.

And you might be friends with the people in the class, and it strengthen the bonds. So now you have over 20 years of combining motherhood and running a business. What kind of advice would you give to women in similar circumstances just starting out?

Advice on starting your own business: I definitely think exploring it, trying it out, doing it in a very, very simple way, and then watching to see how it flourishes, and where the strengths are, and where the weaknesses are. And doing a business plan I think is very, very important. That really pulls it down to reality.

Did you do a business plan?

We never did a business plan. We did it by the seat of our pants. We said, this is a good idea. Or, this looks like a nice area, let’s advertise there. We never did a business plan, and I think it’s a mistake not to do a business plan. I think you really need to do one.

So, if you were going to do it over again …

I would do a business plan.

It’s one of those things you learn retroactively. Today it’s significantly different. If I say I want a business that will accommodate my motherhood responsibilities, that’s not a strange idea as it might have been 20 years ago. Do you look to those starting now and say, you have it pretty easy?

No, women are absolutely fantastic and amazing. There’s that bumper sticker, Necessity is the mother of invention. Because I was involved in the childbirthing community so long ago, I’ve seen a lot of great changes like diaper covers for cotton diapers. There was no such thing, they came from Japan. The Japanese are ahead of us in a lot ways. I can’t wait to travel there and see what else they have going on. So the diaper covers I was offered in my store, because I sold the cotton diapers, and recommending the diaper service. But what do you cover them in? When I started, there was only plastic pants and pins, and I hated them, and that’s when I found the Baby Snibbs. So I used to show them in my classes and sell them in my classes and in my store. After I had Joshua, suddenly, there were suddenly these baby covers, that some company in Toronto was bringing in called Nikkys from Japan, and you just didn’t need pins. You just lay the diaper in there, and you had the diaper cover and you just close back in like a disposable diaper. It wasn’t in North America very long before an American looked at that, and said, I can make that here, and we got Mother-ease, and all those other brands. And in Canada we got Bummis out of Montreal, and Bummis makes all the diaper covers and the diaper services cover them, carry them, and so on. So that’s necessity, the idea is there, and it presents itself, and the mother says, I can do that. The woman who owns Bravado Design bras was in my classes, pregnant with her first baby. She went looking for a nursing bra, she couldn’t find what she wanted. She went with a friend, and she went into business. Had a second baby, she’s all about the best nursing bra in the world, they sell worldwide. Just like that. The sling. Only in California. We saw the sling, we wanted a good baby carrier. There weren’t any good baby carriers. It started with the Snugli. We were glad that they came out in the 60s because it was permission to hold your baby, before that, you’re spoiling them if you held them too much, so that was permission in the 60s [to say] that’s garbage, rubbish. And then they had the sling. We wanted to offer the sling in our classes. We had to bring them in from California.

That’s a lot of trouble when you have to import it.

It was horrible and it was horribly expensive. And it was customs, duties, and all kinds of … it was bad. But a woman in Ontario saw that carrier, that sling and she said, I can make that. As soon as I found her, I phoned her up, and said, send me one. I compared it to the one in California, I wanted to make sure it was as good. It was brilliant, we got rid of California, and supported the Ontario, Canadian-made sling. So I think women are fantastic, they see an idea, or they get an idea that is original, like the Baby Trekker woman, who looked at all the carriers out there and said they’re all horrible, the weight is all in the wrong place, it’s all in the shoulders, including the Snugli, and I’ll design it better. And she does, and we support her.

I imagine when you had the store, you were able to distribute such products. Now that you don’t have the store, do you function as any kind of distributor for the products you advocate?

We sell them, we were the only ones. I brought the Baby Trekker to the city of Toronto about 15 years ago. Nobody knew it. It wasn’t it any store. There weren’t any baby specialty stores when I brought that thing here. We sold it only through the classes. It was all word of mouth and then the specialty stores got on to it. But even some of them didn’t because there wasn’t enough of a mark-up. She’s a totally Canadian-made industry in a small town in Manitoba. She hires sewers in her community, she doesn’t off-shore it where they pay peanuts for it and then make that huge Nike profit. So there was a very small mark-up. Some of the stores didn’t want that small mark-up, they wanted to be able to double, so they wouldn’t carry it, but then they realized because that it was such a good carrier they had to carry it, whether they made the mark-up that they wanted or not. That’s always very curious to me. Then the baby food grinder. Nobody could find the food grinder anywhere. We had to get the distributor. We had to bring them in ourselves and sell them through the classes. Now it’s easier. The specialty stores are on to it. The small independent baby stores sell them. Our philosophy with the products, and it’s left over from my store, is that I can buy what I believe in, I can show what I believe in, I can give that information to the mothers, because I’ve been there, done that, and stop them from being confused. I recommend the baby food book, the Sick Kids one⁶, and I tell them, all the books out there are the same, but this one, some of the money from each sale of the book goes back into the Hospital for Sick Children. Well, I believe in that. So I’m going to sell this book as a guidebook. You can get the food mill. You can get the ice cube tray, and they’ve never seen them before, and I show them how useful they are.

They’ve never seen the ice cube trays?

The ones with the little lids. They’re fabulous. They’re 10, you can put chicken in one, broccoli in another, carrots in one, soup in another. You can take them to your in-laws, you know, travel with them. They have a little attached lid, so they’re separate, and they’re the perfect serving size. And they become a little snack thing that you put your Cheerios or your fishies in, and then it’s portion control instead of handing the bag over, eating 5 million of them. One said she’s buying it for her mother because she grows herbs and she dries them and then freezes them. They’re the perfect serving size for my mother’s spaghetti sauce. They’re $4, they’re so cheap. I put the whole package together, and you’re set to make baby food, and here it is for $50.

Don’t you wish you had that in the 80s?

I had the food grinder. There weren’t many books. There was one book, I still have, it’s called Healthier Eating⁷, and it was written by a mother, not a doctor. The ice cube trays and bulk freezing I figured out for myself, and it was easy.

What do you think is different now that it’s not really unusual for women to say, I want to be a mompreneur? What is different from when you started philosophically than 20 years ago?

That’s a really interesting question because it has really grown incredibly. I’m getting so many e-mails from women, from my own classes even: I was in your class and I’m starting, or I’m doing this. I just got one from a woman who’s starting a book club in the north end of the city, she’s listed all the books, five weeks or ten weeks, $150, this is her business. She’s a professor of English literature, that’s her claim to fame and she’s going to run this thing. This is for mothers with babies, bring your babies, there’s childcare on site.

 But are the books about childrearing?

 No, novels.

What do you do when you hear other mothers starting their own businesses? Do you turn around and tell other people?

Yes, I support other mothers starting businesses and pass the word along. There is often a question about whether new moms want to return to their original jobs or whether they would like to remain at home with their child(ren) and find another career which will balance work and family. I have a whole talk about taking care of yourself, taking time for yourself. I tell them about my experience, I have a ladies night out dinner once a month, we go to different restaurants around the city, $25 and under, includes a glass of wine because we’re all mothers and we all need that glass of wine. We go on nights that are not popular nights so that we support that restaurant. Everyone comes up with some idea, whatever nationality and food. It’s fun to do.

How do you advertise these things?

Those are for my women friends, and they bring their women friends. I tell the women, do this for yourself, and they say, I never thought of that. And I started a book club. I said to the women at the ladies night out dinner, who reads? Who is interested in a book club? It’s changed, people move away, other people brought other people in. The dynamics change, and it’s one book a month, and we meet and rotate houses, and that person’s in charge of the goodies and laying on the cheese and crackers, wine and juice or whatever. It’s very easy. There’s no money involved. Books are available in the library.

What are your objectives for Baby & Me Fitness?

The way I would describe Baby & Me Fitness now is maintaining the high quality level of fitness, yoga, Pilates design. There are programs popping up all over the place. I’m a little nervous about where these people are getting their training. We do a high-end training program, which is two ways, one is a five-day intensive, and the other is a home study course. I have people across North America doing the home study course, and the last teacher training intensive was in the fall, and I had a woman from Japan, a woman from Singapore, a woman from Boston. In the summertime I had a woman from Brazil, all teacher training with me, and hopefully taking the program back to their communities. Baby & Me Fitness has had all these years, has that credibility, is recognized as the leaders for fitness for the childbearing years, pregnancy and post-natal, and making sure that we keep those women safe.

Are you happy with it in business terms, revenue and profit? Would you say the growth is steady?

The growth is good and steady, it’s not huge, but it’s definitely strong and steady.

Did you ever face barriers from a bank or landlord (e.g., when renting office or class space) to explain the legitimacy of your business?

No, there were no barriers. We started at fitness centres so they were already on board with the idea of pregnant women and new moms exercising. The only problem we had was renting space in a Baptist Church that threw us out because we offered a yoga with baby class. They said it was against their religion to allow yoga in their church! They didn’t believe me when I said it was basically a stretch and strength class! No praying and no meditation. We found another location. Other churches have no problem with yoga.

With the growth of other mom and baby fitness classes, as well as the overall increase of mom-preneur businesses, do you think there should be some form of regulation, whether self-governing or governmental, like the Ministry of Health?

It would be a good idea.

Have you heard or witnessed any examples that you think are outstanding or worthy of concern?

Yes, I am concerned about where pre- and postnatal instructors are getting their training. Every corner studio is offering exercises classes for pregnant women and new moms. But are they offering safe and effective exercises? I offer instructor certification courses three times a year in pre- and postnatal fitness, aquafit, strollerfit, yoga and Pilates. I also have a Home Study Course option.

Do you think businesses that cater to mothers and babies are a fad or a long-lasting trend?

It’s a long-lasting trend. There will always be pregnant women and new moms and babies. I would say it’s currently the fastest-growing fitness trend in North America. We’re international now as far as our instructor certification course is concerned, they’re finding me on the web. I get e-mails all the time.

How does that feel?

It feels fantastic. Because of being the leader, I feel our design of the classes and the teacher training is at an extremely high level. I’ve done all that groundwork, I’ve created a strong pre- and postnatal teacher-training foundation. I’ve laid a really solid foundation to keep these women healthy and safe and fit.

Do you think you’ve been able to capitalize on the recent higher profile of baby-oriented products?

Yes. For example, we offered yoga for all those years, and there were five or six women and we kind of limped along. When it became that trend, we got phone calls: Hi, I’m pregnant with my first baby, I’ve never done yoga before and I want to do it now. We had no idea why. We related it to Madonna because Madonna threw away all her equipment. She had her first baby and was totally into ashtanga yoga and so on. And it’s funny how culturally that filters out and you don’t remember how it started when they heard about. And it becomes this huge trend. It’s a long-lasting trend, and I’m really happy with it. That’s the program we offer at all the locations.

As for products, we only sell a small variety of products we believe enhance and improve a pregnant woman or new mom’s life. We have standard products, and occasionally I introduce a new product line like Bumbo or Substance or Jack Newman’s new breastfeeding DVD.

It’s interesting to consider the influence of celebrity moms. What are your thoughts?

People latch on to it, they admire celebrities. Look at all the celebrity shows. If Oprah Winfrey says this is an amazing book by Ann-Marie McDonald, Fall on Your Knees, she has huge influence. Dr. Phil has huge influence. When he says something, I think, oh my goodness, that’s good, that makes sense. And it gets out there. They’re leaders. I’m a leader with different programs. Now I’m all about the first aid and choking, and I want people to get that. Because things happen. Each of my three kids choked on something and it’s scary. You need to know, what are the standards, what are the latest safety rules Red Cross is recommending? Go and learn the latest safety rules in two hours. So you have this information -- you never know when you have to draw on it. CPR. Everyone should have CPR. There’s some town in the U.S., everyone in the whole town knows how to do CPR. That was their goal. How amazing is that? The whole thing for me, the whole thing for Baby & Me Fitness is all about the women and their families, it’s how to keep them healthy and safe. All about the fitness and the health and wellness and safety.

I don’t really know what’s going on [with celebrities], but every now and then I catch the bits of information. Brooke Shields had postpartum depression. That was front and centre. Before her, the only other person who admitted to it and it was the only time it came out was Marie Osmond and it was on Oprah Winfrey. Before that it wasn’t even labelled as a potential postpartum illness.

Even though this diverges from the subject of mompreneurs, I’d like to discuss the subject of postpartum depression. When I went to prenatal classes, the nurse was Scottish, and she said it’s better known in England than here because Princess Diana had it. Even though Brooke Shields’ book made news for a while, it’s still a quiet topic.

I agree totally with that. It’s a fear. The pregnant women have this fear. So I have a handout, what are the signs, what are the chances, where do go for help, so on. We talk about it in prenatal, we talk about it in postpartum. Certainly when that psychologist threw herself in front of the train⁸, we cancelled every discussion that week and we only talked about postpartum depression. Because you can’t ignore that, and out of those classes was a woman who had been her patient a few years before, and a woman whose husband had dated her in high school or university or something. You have to deal with those issues.

There was a woman who had knifed her husband and one of her children and killed herself in my neighbourhood⁹, that was a discussion all week. You have to deal with those things. We talk about postpartum depression, pre- and post, I’ve got the handout. When you raise that issue, because they won’t raise it, it won’t be one of their topics, because they’re very quietly worried about it, and then you get them to hopefully open up, and they say, I’m worried about the baby blues, I’m worried about getting it. One of them in my prenatal classes was [having] her second baby, she had had twins and was having a single baby the second time around, [said,] with my first baby, I wrote out a list and pinned it up and said to my husband, if I show any these signs, get me help.

Do you find there’s a difference in the prenatal versus the postnatal classes.

Yeah, it’s very abstract -- in prenatal the discussion is all information and theory. It goes in one ear and out the other because you can’t apply anything. Afterwards, in postpartum, they can apply the information. [They hear others talk and think,] I could try that, her baby sleeps through the night, she does this. They can go home and try it. That’s when the information becomes a lot more applicable.

In my prenatal classes, I thought, I won’t get it. But in my mothers’ group, which was initiated by a municipal program, and none of us knew each other, one of the women said, I think I have postpartum depression, and practically everything she was describing, I could relate to. Unfortunately, she dropped out of the group very early on. The rest of us continued to meet, and as we got more comfortable with each other, we all admitted that we identified with her to varying degrees and we would wonder if she was okay. But nobody talks about it as if it applies to them. I find it’s very difficult to encourage a discussion on the topic, even just to think out loud.

There’s a magazine called Moods. It was started out by a woman who suffered from severe depression. She found information difficult to access and help difficult to access. She felt it’s a very quiet problem, not discussed. It goes undiagnosed, especially postpartum depression. So she started a magazine. The first issue was terrific. I submitted an article on postpartum depression and fitness because fitness has a positive effect on anybody suffering from baby blues or postpartum depression because it elevates the endorphins and natural hormones that boost mood. It’s very good magazine.

Motherhood is overwhelming. [Every new mother should ask:] What kind of support system do you have? What kind of self-confidence do you have? Who are you looking to and for help?

Even the word “overwhelming,” you don’t always know how it’s defined.

Each person is such an individual that it’s a different definition for everyone in the room.

That’s a really important idea, and I hope everyone can draw strength from their own individuality. Skylar, thank you very much for your time and thoughts and for being such an inspiring leader for moms everywhere. We wish we continued success with motherhood and Baby & Me Fitness.

 Selected References

¹ Mothering magazine is published bimonthly. www.mothering.com.

² The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding by La Leche League International, published by Plume, 2004 (7th revised edition, paperback).

3 Baby Snibbs diaper covers. Available from Baby & Me Fitness $15 10-Pack.

4 Ms. magazine has been publishing since 1971. www.msmagazine.com.

5 Essential Exercises for the Childbearing Years: A Guide to Comfort Before and After Your Baby is Born by Elizabeth Noble, published by New Life Images, revised edition, 2003 (paperback). Available at Parentbooks and other book stores.

6 Better Baby Food: Your Essential Guide to Nutrition, Feeding & Cooking for All Babies & Toddlers by Daina Kalnins, RD CNSD, and Joanne Saab, RD, published by Robert Rose Inc., 2001. 

7  Recipes for Healthier Eating by Edith Redman

8  On Aug. 11, 2000, Suzanne Killinger-Johnson, a Toronto clinical psychologist, jumped in front of a subway train with her 6-month-old son who died instantly. Ms. Killinger-Johnson succumbed to her injuries 10 days later. Source: cbc.ca and other published media reports.

9  On Dec. 1, 2004, Andrea Labbe, Brian Langer and their daughter Zoe were found dead in their Toronto home. Mr. Langer had phoned 911 and told dispatchers that his wife had stabbed him. At a press conference two days later, the police announced that Ms. Labbe had stabbed her husband and two of their daughters, one of whom survived. Source: the Toronto Sun and other published media reports.